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August 28, 2007

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» Stowe Boyd from /Message
Reputation is collective intelligence applied to the individual. [I had forgotten I'd said it: thanks, Ryan.] [Read More]

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By "identity," are you describing only an individual's identity?

One of the things about the current crop of "social" applications is that most of them define "social" only in ego-centric terms. More properly, these are ego-centric social applications.

Identity can also be considered in terms of group identity. And, outside of the current crop of social applications, the generally successful social architectures of the Internet can be seen as group forming and group identity architectures, e.g., via mailing lists, discussion boards, some wikis, etc.

I don't know if "group forming" will come in fashion again, or if "ego-centric social networks" will go out of fashion. But, I don't fully buy the web 2.0 idea that the social web now is a true evolution of the social Internet of the past. So, I'd consider group identity as an enduring facet of social architectures.

A great point, Jay, thanks. I totally agree with you. I think of group identity as living between what you might call culture and the group social contract (whether it's explicit or implicit).

For me, this idea of group identity is best understood as a set of attributes belonging to relationships. I like to talk about groups as structured relationships between individual identities, and the identity of the group as a set of norms, both system-defined (since I'm in your group I can see your contacts) and idiosyncratic (in our group, we don't have to explain the difference between "big IA" and "little IA.")

Ego-centric social networks? Say more.

Maybe I can get my point out a bit differently:

What you are describing as "identity" merges a number of different identity-related concepts under one label. Although some of the concepts you are including are human-centric, some are computer-system-centric.

So, group identity is an example of a kind of identity that can be described in human-centric terms, but is hard to describe in computer-system-centric terms.

One of things that's cool about the Internet is that, more or less as a whole, it supports group identity in human-centric terms. For example, a group of people have some group identity, like "begonia fanciers" that lives on the web.

This is different than desktop computer and web site systems which tend to build on the computer security hierarchy that defines the "user" as the atom of "identity." So, from this perspective, you have first a user named Hazel79, who then becomes a member of the "begonias-4-ever" group on MySpace.

You commented: "For me, this idea of group identity is best understood as a set of attributes belonging to relationships."

When you say that, aren't you implying that the relationships belong to the individuals? The individuals come first?

What I am suggesting is that group identity is more like individuals belonging to relationships. The group comes first, in some sense.

Re "Ego-centric social networks": this is the Flickr / Myspace / web 2.0 model where the network is seen principally in terms of "my network" or "my friends." It's the "my" view.

Jay, I really appreciate the depth of your thinking on this (as on many things). I don't really disagree with anything you're saying, but I do think there's room for both "system-centric" and "human-centric" notions in the broadly-drawn discussion of identity in social systems. The social architect deals with both, just as the information architect deals with content at the database / metadata level and the mental model / interface level.

You asked: "aren't you implying that the relationships belong to the individuals? The individuals come first?"

That's a great question. I say, yes and no. In terms of identity online, our relationships can clearly be counted among our individual attributes. And on the other hand, you're absolutely right, as individuals in states of "belonging" we are also attributes of a group.

Both things are true. The question is, in a given context, which item is the object and which is the descriptor? It could be either, and I'd say the site itself can be characterized by the emphasis you choose. This is one way I distinguish between "social networks," which are identity-centric, and "online communities," which you might say are relationship-centric.

Let me know what you think of that.

And, stay tuned for Part Two of my social architecture manifesto, in which I'll explore (more intelligently now, after this conversation), exactly the kinds of relationship and group issues you're raising.

I think you're on to something really interesting here, and I am mostly prodding a bit at these broad concepts you're using. Identity, relationship and media each can be considered in terms of humans and systems. And, each term can also be seen as encompassing the other (e.g., relationships are an attribute of identity, or identity is an attribute of media, etc.).

You said:
"I do think there's room for both 'system-centric' and 'human-centric' notions in the broadly-drawn discussion of identity in social systems."

Absolutely. I am just suggesting that, in broad terms, some of the system-centric notions are not aligned with human-centric notions. So, I think there can be important differences between system architectures designed for social uses and social architectures that inform the design of systems.

Ryan,

I applaud your attempt to build your social architecture manifesto on these three tiers. However, I can’t help but resonate with the tension that is surfacing in your comment thread with Jay.

Can identity and relationships be separated? Is there such thing as autonomy in the social web space? Can I be known singularly and not a part of a group?

While these questions may be addressed later in your manifesto, it seems your focus in regard to identity is narrowed to possession, or what a person, as an identity on a website, can claim as his/her own?

Quite clearly, some of these attributes are significantly defined in relationships, like reputation (I can be a good answerer in a forum, but not as good as Jay) or my content (I can create and upload a remixed version of Jay’s flip book PowerPoint in Art of Office), I can still claim ownership as an individual within a group.

I’m not sure I’m making sense here (and believe me, it wouldn’t be the first time), so let me provide some clarity:

Drawing clear distinctions between identity and relationships even within blog posts is a very difficult task. Without relationships, any conversation about identity is like telling only part of the story. (It’s like the second and third Matrix movies: splitting them up makes it easier to sell, but isn’t the best way to tell the story.) And while media is also an important facet within the social media space, the link between it and the others isn’t as strong.

That said, if anyone can split this atom in an eloquent and meaningful way, it’s you. However, I can’t help but hold my breath for the next chapter.

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